On the 8th of October VPRO Dutch television will broadcast the documentary ‘Turkije – Het Dilemma van de Democratie’: ‘Turkey – the dilemma of democracy’. The documentary will focus on the issue of EU membership for Turkey and the role of islam in a democracy. Here at Sargasso we will discuss statements made in this documentary by Newsweek journalist Fareed Zakaria, Turkish president Abdullah Gül and prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. From October 5th until October 12th, each day at 13.00h (Amsterdam time, 14.00h Istanbul time) we will post one of these statements. With these statements we will post the views on the statement by a Dutch member of the European parliament, a Dutch journalist and producer, a Dutch-Turkish rapper and bloggers from the Turkish blogosphere. All posts of this Dutch-Turkish blogging project can be found here. This blogging project is part of the Dutch democracy week WijZijnDeBaas (WeAreTheBoss): the Dutch contribution to the International Week for Democracy.
The statements will be provided in text and after the broadcasting of the documentary also in short video messages. Although normally on Sargasso we write in Dutch in this case we will be discussing in English, because we feel it’s important non-Dutch (and especially Turkish) bloggers can join in. In this case we also ask our Dutch ‘reaguurders’ (commenters) to discuss in English, for the sake of what the internet is all all about: enabling worldwide communication. Here are some of the blogs from the Turkish blogosphere (turkish and expat) who were contacted and/or contributed to this project: erkansaka.net, istanbulian.blogspot, quirkglobalstrategies, energynewsletterturkey.blogspot, internations.blogspot, arabisto.com, thewhitepath.com, mvdg.wordpress.
The classical dilemma of democracy is that a majority of people can vote within the system to abolish it and therefor eliminate democracy itself. Is democracy about having a majority, or is it about how the majority treats minorities within the system? In theory a democracy can introduce the sharia. That’s why for political commentator and Newsweek journalist Fareed Zakaria Turkey is an interesting test case in the VPRO Tegenlicht documentary. In the VPRO Tegenlicht documentary ‘Democratie voor beginners ‘ (2004): ‘Democracy for Starters’ Zakaria warns that a political system can end in tyranny of the majority. In the coming documentary VPRO Tegenlicht poses the question: can democracy and islam co-exist? By engaging in an Dutch-Turkish blogging project Sargasso wants to take the discussions one step further: beyond our own borders. Why have one discussion in Holland and one in Turkey, when we can try to understand each other viewpoints in a bilateral discussion?
Update (8-10): First statements with discussion:
Belief in Democracy 1/8
Belief in Democracy 2/8
Belief in Democracy 3/8
Reacties (50)
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2007/ga10612.doc.htm
Turkey is an interesting country because it transformed itself in the 1920s from being a backward theocracy that lost the 1st World War into an aspiring modern state, trying hard to keep up with the winning west. Now, from 2000 on, it wants to join them, becoming part of the EU.
As a matter of fact, maybe democracy is not very much threatened in Turkey. Everyone is allowed to vote and everyone can form a political party to take their stand in the political arena within the bounds of what the army sees as vital to the welfare of the Turkish nation.
However, the real problem of Turkey, according to European voices, is its poor (backward) record in law making and justice doing. The big paradox is that Turkey’s modernization has not led to substantial improvements in this field. Europe will only be at peace when all its members have the basic human rights (U.N.) implemented in their systems.
Last year, the Dutch witnessed a remarkable incident. Although pedophilia is not allowed in Dutch law and society, it is not forbidden to form a political party which tries to legalize pedopilia. That is what happened. And it had no chance, nobody voted for them. Now, that is democracy.
Welcome Turkish bloggers & congratulations Sargasso for doing this !
a dutch-turkish rapper? is that really necessary? :(
Mescaline, Turkey applied for EU membership in 1987 and is a associate membership since 1963.
Mescaline, Turkey is also a member of the European Convention on Human Rights so any Turkish guy who thinks his human rights are violated can appeal that decision at the European Human Rights Court so if Human Rights are violated in Turkey that only happens because the victims are too lazy to appeal the decision.
Mescaline, no – that’s not the real threat. The real threat is that turkey will no longer be a secular state. The question is whether secularism and true democracy can co-exist in turkey.
Hi,welcome -e doğru Sargasso , biraz çok -in insanlar içinde garp -si olmak karşı koymak a Türk EU üyelik. onların neden çeşitli olmak. biraz insanlar demek hindi bkz. be değil an Frenk ülke. biraz insanlar demek hindi bkz. be çok yoksul. var da insanlar kim demek biricik belgili tanımlık ordu içinde hindi -ebilmek hakim olmak inak İslam. I düşünmek en insanlar içinde garp istemek özgür ticaret ile hindi. ama i da düşünmek en insanlar içinde garp sakin istemek hindi içinde belgili tanımlık EU.
Hey Sikbock,
We agreed to post comments in English, you daredevil you ;-/
Is that a silly joke @Sikbock ? Lots of biraz insanlar demek hindi bkz. repeated.
@Michiel. Why shouldn’t it after Turkey reforms its law system as I mentioned in #2:3 ? If it doesn’t reform, there is no real democracy and then your question doesn’t need to be asked. So again, do you foresee in Turkey a kind of “Geert Wilders dreaded islamic turnover” ?
@Freek 6/7 you have obviously not had much experience with the expression “mañana, señor!” (wait till tomorrow) as said by officials. Which is typically for the impatient Dutch, I might add ;-)
#12bis So again, do you foresee in Turkey a kind of “Geert Wilders dreaded islamic turnover” where secularism is banned and everyone will bow for the rope of the sharia ?
I think that the Turkish people are most anxious to avoid that outcome… contrary to popular belief (in Holland).
@Mescaline..IC..experience …so,
One small question, if you allow me…ever bin in Turkey
then and now..(beond Byzantium ..oups..sorry.. Constantinople oh no Istanbul of course ;)?
Walking down the streets and comparing with my earlier feelings makes me feel rather uncomfortable.
No I haven’t, but perhaps I might read Geert Mak, The bridge to make up for it ? And what is making you uncomfortable in Turkey ?
Talking to locals.
Are you in love with Princess Maxima ?
When I was young i kept asking my father..why there was a war (1940) if everybody knew it was coming.
“It just happens” he said…we fall in out traps, it’s historical..we learn from our past that we never learn..wise words.
Turkey will experience internal war and after that they will join the big family…it will take time.
I love Turkey btw.
@15 Why does talking to locals (what defines a local? not living in Istanbul? wearing a headscarf?) make you uncomfortable? Were people dismissive towards you, or were it their ideas towards democracy? Please explain.
I was in Istanbul at the beginning of the year and felt a positive vibe. Most of all I got the impression that it was a very western and modern city. But I can imagine that it’s absolutely not the same in the country side!
@19 My father always says that a donkey never hit a stone twice, but mankind does it constantly….
Been all over Maup and i speak a little.
Some people where just plain scared to talk. Headscarf or whatever people may wear whatver, means nothing to me..it’s the mind i am interested in.
“Istanbul” is changing fast mind U.
Shake hand with your father…We who think are so bright ,as a species, are just beginning i’m afraid, messing it all up.
I will now, to end, give a toast 2 your’e father :) ..(echie:)
@22 Were people scared because of the expanding influence of islamists or is it more because the society is polarising between extreme secularists and extreme islamists. Is the fading of discussion not the issue? (As it is in many more countries I’m afraid – btw)
@Maup, extreme secularists ? Hahaaaah. you have become the victim of some non-information in this topic…. “ethnic independence” is one hidden word. “Fucked up/honour” is the other one.
Ik kwam hier eigenlijk voor die turkse meningen.. de turkse bloggers laten het helaas afweten
ook op hun eigen sites weinig reacties trouwens
Het blogmoment is verkeerd (==te laat). Iedereen daar is al teleurgesteld na de eerste hoop.
Goed gezien @Sikbock 27. Dat brengt me op een rekensom.
Slecht karma.
Foute planning.
Niet afgestemd qua moment.
Te eenzijdige aktie.
++++++++++++++
?????????
En toch de moeite waard geweest.
Girls (mescaline & sikbock), this is just the announcement…
Tomorrow one ‘o’ clock then the first views from the turkish blogosphere (and beyond) will be published here.
I will be too pleased to participate your Debate.
There is an interesting book: Mijn Istanbul.
By Bernard Bouwman, correspondent of NRC en NOS in Turkeyi.
regards from a Dutch in Istanbul
@ Maup 20
Sorry for going back up the line: what do you mean exactly by ‘modern’ when you say ‘it is a very western and modern city. But I can imagine that it’s absolutely not the same in the country side!’. Maybe it is good to look at shots of the current situation in Kayseri upcoming Monday in the Backlight documentary. Most Europeans are familiar with Istanbul and West/Southcoast, but the real transformation of Turkey is taking place in the interior.
Living in Istanbul since 1998 and many times through the years from 1982, I do feel that Turkey has greatly changed and still in the midst of changing. Being integrated into a Turkish family who took me in and mostly socializing with Turkish friends and colleagues, I can easily say that the warm, friendly and secure feelings I once had just less than two years ago has now remarkably changed.
This does not mean that the wheels are turning back: Only that the people are changing a great deal and are not so foreign friendly as they once were. Nevertheless, I love Turkey, her people and her land and I hope Turks will embrace entering the EU in larger numbers than presently exist.
Step onto the Turkish bandwagon and visualize what Europe can be with Turkey by its side. A Europe without Turkey will certainly be less than it can be.
Carlos: who cares? We can comment, so we will ;-p
Mescaline: although I agree that a fair judicial system should be a condition for EU membership, it seems an unfair condition when you consider the countries that have become EU members in the last few years. Rumania, Slovakia and Poland for instance, have serious problems in that area. And to take it a step further: we have been eroding our own judicial system in the last six years under the guide of the “war on terror”. Just yesterday the Interior Minister tried to get basically unlimited powers to gather information on indfividuals. A report
A very critical report on gathering data by government offices “Data door Daadkracht” (http://www.bzk.nl/aspx/download.aspx?file=/contents/pages/89605/datavoordaadkracht.pdf) was simply denied. Democracy and fair justice need transparacy, and that’s something we lack more and more.
Having said that, I do believe Turkey should improve on legal system and human rights – as we should have demanded from other now memberstates. If that happens, I’d gladly have Turkey as a EU member. Both Turkey and the EU would benefit.
Great initiative from collective blog sargasso spearheaded by Chief Editor aka Carlos. Mind you (a footnote but nevertheless) they keep the place running with peanuts and scrap. No seriously, I hope that this blogging extravaganza will be a success and wish the participants a fruitfull discussion.
@ Mescaline # 2
As ever sharp. He strikes a big goldnuggett: “Turkey’s poor record in law making and justice doing”. I believe that (these, but also on other issues/ subjects) “things” will even out when Turkey joins the EU. Furthermore Turkey can be, IS THE example that muslims and christians can live in peace next to each other. Maybe can serve as an example for the ongoing almost crippled debate about islam in the netherlands. Almost coming to the point of nauseousness.
But @ Bea #35 delivers the big fat rat: “friendly and secure feelings I once had just less than two years ago has now remarkably changed”. Hello, what more do you need! I don’t think its’s wise to keep Turkeye on a EU- leash in this respect. Oké, rejecting the EU constitution by France and the netherlands and following negative attitude towards the new members didn’t do the process any good. But there is a great risk that
“the wheels are turning back”. And I don’t wanna hear anybody who voted against the constitution and where against Turkeye joining complainig if hell breakes loose with the Kurds in due time!
I want them to join in. But let’s decide quickly to hop on the bandwagon and do the horrellepiep…or not…
@ Freek # 7
“the victims are too lazy to appeal”. Now now Freek, that was a load of crap my friend wouldn’t you say. Or were you just kidding.
@ larie
A lot of repsect for larie’s observations, he’s been around you know. But don’t you think (larie) that you have to live for many years in a country to really understand the greater picture?
And it’s a pity to see vinagar pissing a- holes like sikbock becoming impatient after just a few hours. Let alone that the discussion hasn’t even stárted yet.
Readers might be interested in the thread Banning the Koran in a democracy at WhyDemocracy
http://www.whydemocracy.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59&page=1#Item_1
Look now once ! Now is the blog in the English !
If a Dutch government with a majority in Parliament decides to ban the Koran, western media call that ‘democracy’. But if a Turkish government with a majority in Parliament decides to ban the Bible, western media would call that ‘undemocratic’. It seems the theoretical issues are being distorted by xenophobic prejudices .
Try to be clear. If Saudia Arabia became a democracy tomorrow, and the electorate was asked to vote on allowing a Gay Pride event in Riyadh, something like this…
http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=207874766&context=set-72157594226002430&size=l
… then the Saudi electorate would probably vote 99% NO. An Islamist government in Turkey, where the majority is Muslim, is not ‘undemocratic’. It is logical in a democracy that the government reflects majority values. However western supporters of democracy tend to identify ‘democracy’ with the political culture they expect in heir own country. It is not only an Islam issue. Polish and Russian bans on Gay Pride events are described as ‘undemocratic’ in western EU countries, but they reflect the Catholic and Orthodox cultural background of their internal majority.
So is democracy a political process, or a set of pre-determined values? If it is a political process, then an Islamist government – elected by a majority in free and fair elections – is democratic. On the other hand, many western supporters of democracy see it as a society with certain values. Islamism contradicts these values, they say, and therefore no Islamist government is democratic. This is the dominant attitude in EU assessments of Turkey: ‘democracy’ is seen as cultural assimilation to ‘western values’, and not as a political decision-making system.
@paul: You certainly have to watch the Tegenlicht documentary next Monday. Lots of issues mentioned in your comment will be in there!
— Editor: Comment got stuck in the spam-filter. Excuse us for this —-
Earlier I sent my comments on your email concerning Democracy in Turkey- Here are further comments
It is my sincere feeling that here in turkey we have our own type of Democracy not matching any other country
EU participation is a good opportunity however we should keep in mind that EU environment is not a paradise either
We should always keep in mind our reciprocal self interests, and we should respect to all
Democracy is possible in a Muslim majority country only if they have secular securities/ meajures to protect the rights of all citizens in their constitution
Voter average education level is the most critical issue in a Democracy and we should always keep in mind that in our region that figure quite low.
In Turkey, overall average education level is 3.9 years for 70 million population and only 5.1 years for 40 million voters
Therefore not only elected parliamentarians are the only authority
but there are other constitutional powers such as
academicians, universities, NGOs, Courts, chambers of professionals unions, political parties, labor unions, even the armed forces in legal boundaries
Thank you & best regards
Dear Colleagues
If you search your family history, everyone will find a skeleton in their cellar
Human rights violation does not take place only in our part of the globe and we can find dirty past in everywhere.
WW2 is full of those nasty memories everywhere in Europe
Thanks to Ataturk and his compatriots that we have been avoided to participate to that dirty war theater, although we paid a lot in the previous global war, WW1
Personally my family also paid a lot. My grandparents were soldiers to fight against invaders, and they were emigrants to walk more than 3000 miles from Sarajevo to the motherland in 1912 winter, leaving all belongings back in their farmland
EU environment is NOT a paradise, and Turkey should not necessarily join to that union
There is nothing we should copy from our counterparts legal framework of other lands, nor we should have any example of any party, although we may learn not to repeat their inappropriate experiences, we can only learn from past experience of all and look for better future by ourselves
That is only possible with more education of future generations
Thank you & best regards
I don’t understand this assertion @Haluk. Why do you say that ? Freedom of opinion is still rather under threat by the Turkish gov. itself, the writer Orhan Pamuk can tell some tales. I am very curious why you think that the Turkish law making system + applying justice is the best for your country right now.
Living in a country as a foreigner yet taking part in the community, one can see the differing faces of democracy at work. I am writing on Arabisto today that democratization is a delicate and vulnerable process. It does change according to the society and culture and does not have to be all things to all people.
In June, on my own blog, Turkey & My Foreign Perspectives, I wrote a series on Turk Bashing, Islam in Turkey and Myths about Turkey; in September I wrote about Turkish Radicalism and Similarites in our Religions.
By writing these articles, I wanted to share what I have seen and experienced first hand as a foreigner living in Turkey for many years. There is not just one perspective to see Turkey whether it is religion, politics, culture, ethnicity or society in general. Turkey has many faces and even with its deficiencies, the society develops more every day and works for change in most every segment of society.
There is no full democracy anywhere in the world, but there is democracy in Turkey in most all of the elements necessary and continually gets better on that count.
@Bea the military are very anxious that ethnic minorities will one day strife for independence. Have you heard these voices in daily life ?
@Mescaline, I have heard this very thing since 1982 when I first entered the country as an American military officer. It isn’t about ethnic minorities, per se, but the Kurdish in the southeast.
The Turkish military has always clanged that bell, yet I have heard only a rare few actually say “I want my own country.” Typically, even poorly educated people and the downtrodden know that belonging to a country which is already working is better than an independent state which has no money or resources.
The military talks about this phenomena incessantly because it feels its last vestiges of power in the Republic withering away. Many of the southeastern villages have cleared out and headed west with all the PKK violence in the east. Even with re-entry projects and money handed out, they still want to stay in Istanbul, Izmir, Ankara, Adana and Mersin.
In daily life I find there are Kurdish people all over Turkey and in government too. They are Turkish citizens, born and raised here. This is their home. Do they want to improve their lot? Certainly, don’t most people?
Dear Colleagues
In order to believe in democracy, you should avoid “Petty Politics”
Please do note the following,
“Dear Members of Press, I have no such statement – Price increase in electricity- in my agenda-. If there would be such a decision, then, the Government Speaker would definitely make a public announcement. All other statements are clearly nothing, but baseless gossip and rumor. We are very sensitive on these issues. Because our Government is in a great effort to upgrade the living standards of our citizens, we are not in the same mood of our past peers as “price increase in evening, and then again price increase in the next morning”. We accomplished to make to forget the wording “Price increase” from our daily life. I presume that all of you and our citizens wish to remember- those days- again. Do not let them again”.
These were the words of the highest Political Authority of the Turkish Administration concerning the current discussions on the wholesale electricity prices last week.
On the other hand, in the last five years, the labor and equipment/material prices have exhibited 50 and 100% increases based on the current local economic indexes, respectively. Moreover, the price of natural gas received from GasProm of Russia has unbelievably increased by 73%; currently being 315 US Dollars per 1000 m3. The contribution of gas term to the overall wholesale electricity price is about 8.13 Cents/kWh, while, as of 18 Jan 2007, the Turkish average electricity wholesale price for TETAS (the Turkish Government owned Wholesale Company) is set at 7.6 Cents/kWh level.
Despite of all these frustrating consequences in gas prices, a member of foreign embassy in Ankara, who obviously seems to have the authority of representing GasProm, could openly stated towards the audience of an intellectual platform in a liberal university that;
“Gazprom, will certainly continue to increase the natural gas prices until otherwise their clients would find alternative fuel resources for themselves.”,
thus creating a very cold environment in the audience.
Furthermore, in parallel with increase in political tension between USA and Iran, the oil prices and then as a consequence, the natural gas prices are expected to increase in 2008. The progressively increasing prices in NG during the last four years had a reflection on the Turkish Private Electricity Generation Sector, particularly on the autoproducers (Turkish independent Power Producers) and the Licensed Electricity Generation Companies which depend on natural gas in deep disappointment and frustration.
As a result of these frustrations, most of these companies have eventually found themselves with no alternative, but applying to Turkish Market Balancing and Settlement Center (MBSC / DUY, a spot market operated by the Turkish Transmission System Operator TSO, where electricity is sold with respect to hourly marginal costs) and selling their generation with respect to these marginal prices, and thus abandoning their existing bilateral contracts made with their customers.
Today, TETAS is functioning as a purchasing mechanism for wholesale electricity taken from these companies at a price of 12.5 Cents / kWh and selling at 7.6 Cent/kWh to the Turkish public wholesale market. So, how is the difference being financed and by whom? That difference is obviously financed by the other public establishment on the other side of the same Avenue, the Turkish Treasury.
More unfavorable side is that, the Political Authority now seems to have no alternative, but favoring the natural gas fired plants, due to the obvious fact that time allowed to close the gap between supply demand curves is too short for establishing other types of plants than gas,
the unfortunate fate of the members of the Present Political Authority is that although they had all of their political accusations against the members of the Previous Government in that respect that a high volume of redundant natural gas fired generation capacity has been established without any reasonable justification during the past five years,
and now they seem to be heading exactly to the same situation that they are to be surrendered by gas fired plants even by higher percentages.
Present situation reveals that almost 44% of the total electricity generation belongs to natural gas, and this share is expected to be increased to higher levels within the next five years, due to the obvious gap in the supply demand curves expected within the next two years, thus leading to significant increases in the wholesale and retail electricity prices.
Electricity prices have always been a very serious subject of political concern for Turkish Political Authorities, since it is vitally important for being politically popular and being successful in the next election(s). The present Political Authority obviously and clearly foresees the possible risks of getting politically unpopular due to high prices, and does not even pronounce any increase in electricity prices. Therefore, it seems that the report prepared Three Turkish Ministers advising “increase in Electricity Prices” has immediately been disappeared without being published.
With the fixed idea (obsession) of supplying cheap electricity to the local industry, current subsidy implemented on the Turkish wholesale market has obviously introduced severe symptoms on the private generation sector in the form of discouraging the foreign investments,
hence eventually leading to the obvious supply-demand unbalance expected to appear more clearly within the nest two years,
and create adverse effects in approximately 8 billion US Dollar equivalent, as a high burden on the Turkish Treasury.
The investors who could be interested in making further investments have obviously changed their intensions due to unfavorable climate created by the low electricity prices.
Within the directives of the Political Authority, the 8 billion US Dollar financial deficiency has already been compensated by the Turkish Treasury through the taxes paid by the ordinary citizens with no relation of consuming wholesale electricity whatsoever.
The obvious shortage between supply-demand balance however, would be felt soon in the Turkish wholesale and retail markets as sharp price increases within the next two years.
Unless a miraculous solution has been found, the developments seem to yield a picture exhibiting more and more dependency on the natural gas for electricity generation
and the unconditional surrender by the prices dictated by the unreliable neighbors on the North and East borders.
Your comments are always welcome
Interesting article about Islamic goverment (sharia)
In original Islam, there are more human rights than what today’s secular practices offer! Unless there is active violence to others, Islam leaves the person alone with his own faith and does not force or punish!
It was very clear that the rules that were practiced at the era of Mohammed, the Rasul and Nabi of Allah, were a great deal different from the perception of Muslimism practiced at the periods after him.
read more..
http://www.ahmedbaki.com/english/books/manreligion/islamicgovern.htm